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Snakeye · Newbie

--={FN-SCAR}=--

Inigo · Member

I challenge this statement: "...and the SCAR-H has definetly less recoil in-game now than a M16A2 burst." This is clearly not the case any way you look at it.

Let's not mince words, recoil is recoil. There is no calculation for "felt" recoil. In other words, the BaseKick determines the amount of upward pitch movement the weapon is displaced. The higher the BaseKick, the more it is displaced, plain and simple.

Edit: [I performed the same test firing 20 shots each for the H comparison and 28 shots each for the L comparison, showing the results painfully transparent. Both shot patterns for the SCAR are longer than the M16A2's.] Thus, the recoil of both the SCAR-H and SCAR-L is higher than the recoil of the M16A2.

The reason people think it's lower, again, is because of the lower rate of fire. When the rate is lower, the pause between shots is longer giving the user more time to re-adjust. I gather most INF players are used to firing while giving that little push downward to compensate for recoil. That adjustment will translate more significantly if the rate of fire is lower because of the longer pause between shots. It is simply a consequence of mathematics.
I recall another incident back when the M4A1 was first released, which further reinforces the fact that most people are not aware of this. Originally, the M4A1 had the same rate of fire as the M16A2, but it was decided that it should be lowered to 700rpm like the SIG because players thought it was too high giving the M4A1 an edge. What they didn't realize is that they effectively made it a little easier to control by lowering the rate. Not surprisingly, they later complained that the recoil was too low... So, that was "corrected." Rates of fire are lowered for better handling. It should feel easier to control. Unfortunately, there's no optimal method of making the player feel the recoil other than a view shift in-game.

While I am actually tempted to try out your suggested numbers, since having it momentum based is sound, I think this would be an oversight to other factors, such as better design. This article had something to say about the SCAR's recoil http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/Articles/2008/05/FNs-Scar-Rifle-Offers-Heavy-Punch-Light-Recoil.aspx.
"One of the best things about the SCAR is that it is so easy to shoot accurately, even on full auto. The weapon has very little recoil even in the 7.62 configuration. On full auto, it's easy to keep the SCAR on target because it doesn't rise as radically as many other assault rifles.
FN has established the cyclic rate of the SCAR at 600 to 650 rounds per minute, much less than the 800 rounds per minute of many combat rifles. That means that it's easier to control, and it doesn't consume ammunition as quickly on full auto."

I guess, just maybe, my numbers are reasonable. Who knows?

-- Edited by Inigo on Wednesday 19th of August 2009 01:00:55 PM

Snakeye · Newbie

Inigo wrote:

Hey, thanks for the reply.

Both the recoil for the H and L variants are higher than the M16A2. The variable to look for is the BaseKick. The BaseKick is 240 for the H, 214 for the L, and 175 for the M16. For interest's sake, you'll notice that the ratio of these values is the same as the ratio for the caliber diameters, 7.62, 6.8, and 5.56. The reason it "feels light" is because the rates of fire for the H and L are 600rpm and 625rpm, respectively. Compare that to the 750rpm of the M16. Recoil is more controllable when the rate of fire is lower. This is actually the reason the SCAR's ROF is set this low in real life.
This was the same issue the AKM had when it was first released, everyone said its recoil was lower than whatever, when in fact it never was; and that ultimately lead to the ridiculously high recoil on some of the 7.62 rifles. So the bull**** ends now.

Just for clarification I meant the single shot recoil (and I have had a look at the basekick before my first post); overall I'm not sure about the applied method of recoil calculation, basically since I think using bullet diameters is an oversimplification.

From my understanding recoil is - in a simplyfied form - the momentum of the bullet tranfered to the rifle (and then to the shooter). As such I would assume that the felt recoil depends mainly on bullet weight, muzzle velocity and rifle weight; of course I'm neglecting other fators like barrel position and so on, but that would make things overly complicated. Basically the recoil factor I'd use was something like that:

FeltRecoil=BulletSpeed*BulletWeight/Rifleweight [basically the momentum equation m1*v1=m2*v2 - and yes, I assume here that the FeltRecoil is in proportion to the speed the rilfe would get from fireing the bullet if there was no force acting against it].

The formula would result in increased recoil for faster and heavier bullets and decreased recoil for heavier weapons - all of which is true IRL according to my experiences with weapons of various size, weight and caliber.

From what I gathered the M16A2 and FN SCAR are about the same weight (~4kg loaded), the bullet weights and velocities for the calibers in question should be about the values below:
5.56x45 (fired from M16A2): 4g at 930m/s
6.8 SPC (weapon not specified): 7.5g at 800m/s
7.62x51 (fired from SCAR): 9.5g at 802m/s

This would result in the following values for "felt recoil":
M16A2 (5.56x45): 0.93 (let's say 1)
SCAR-L (6.8 SPC): 1.5
SCAR-H (7.62x51): 1.9

Taking the 175 basekick of the M16A2 as reference, the values of the SCAR-L would end up at about 260 and the SCAR-H at about 330. As an interesting sidenote the FAL would end up with a basekick of about 300 [4.45kg weight and 823m/s muzzle velocity] as compared to the 420ish it has now. Note that I'd still use smaller numbers than the above [to compensate for other factors like rifle design], but 290-300 for the SCAR-H and 235-245 for the SCAR-L would be my first attempts.

I hope the above wasn't too nerdy, I basically wanted to show that when I comment on recoil I usually don't reference whatever wrong implementations have been used in 7.62x51 rifles in Inf before (with G3A3 being ridiculously low and FAL ridiculously high), but rather try to think how I would model it.

Another thing I found strange is the text message for the 40mm grenades hitting things - is it in just for the Beta versions? Because frankly I'm not sure I'd like to know if I hit something I didn't see with a 40mm nade - I don't care too much about the message the person hit gets. Also it seems to affect other projectiles in COOP - I repeatedly got the message I said hello to SkaarjGunners little friend (who wasn't using a SCAR).

Overall I have to say (after further testing yesterday) that the SCAR makes a very good COOP weapon - the M441s are especially useful in the close-quarter areas where other 40mms don't arm. The more I use it, the more I like it :)

Inigo · Member

RC15 Current Revision 9.8.18

Inigo · Member

RE: --={FN-SCAR}=--

Snakeye · Newbie

Hi there, got to try out the SCAR yesterday after XploD put it on his server, and I felt obliged to give a bit of feedback.

First off I have to say I'm astonished to the level of detail done with this weapon - the safety lever actually being switched, the different skins, the two versions with various attachments, the safe reload procedure, overall an excellent work - probably the best I've seen so far for Inf.

A few things did show up though where, in my personal opinion, it could be closer to reality.

For one the aimview of the reflex feels wrong to me, especially given the location of the reflex sight on the weapon. To actually get such a view you would have to place your cheek somewhere on the RIS, which would result in your face making friend with the ****ing lever. I've tried putting it to the same distance as the iron sight view and it seems better - perhaps a bit closer than that would be perfect - since the reflex obstructs much less of your view.

The other point that got my attention is the smoke trail of the 40mm grenades, mostly because they didn't have any on every video I ever saw of a 40mm being fired. While some found it optically pleasing, it's not realistic IMO.

The last point I'd add is the SCAR-H recoil being a tad too light - if I interpreted the numbers correctly it's about 1/2 of the (heavily overdone) FAL recoil, while doing just a tad less damage. I've heard claims a 7.62x51 would have about the recoil of a 5.56x45 3 round burst, and the SCAR-H has definetly less recoil in-game now than a M16A2 burst. Perhaps an increase of recoil of the SCAR-H in the region of 15%-20% would make it feel more balanced overall.

I'm not sure if Biene already mentioned it, but there seems to be a problem with some of the custom skins showing on other slung weapons (in this case Biene's PSG).

In any case I want to emphasis again on how splendid a work I think you did, especially considering the small Inf community - I'm really looking forward to future releases.

Lethal Dosage · Newbie

Gave this a try and it's really good! i especially like how user friendly it is, and the number of features it has like being able to toggle through aimpoint reticule shape and colour. Another nifty feature is the ability to either toggle through the weapon colour in the loadouts, or force it via the console.

It's very well done, although i must say there is a huge list of variations for the Weapon Priorities list! Thankfully though it only took me about 20mins to figure them all out and add them to the WP List mutie.

I like that there is an actual animation for switching between the fire-modes on the rifle, and i love the animation for changing ammo type in the EGLM where the hand catches the live shell and puts it away before loading in the selected ammo type.

I'm curious wether the slight colour differences between the base weapon and most of the attachments is intentional. For example the ACOG and suppressor are considerably darker than the base weapon, and even the EGLM is slightly different.

I didn't find much that could be considered bugs, however some of what may be issues are;

1. The extremely low velocity and curved trajectory of the regular 40mm (M441?) Grenades compared to the relatively flat trajectory of the 40mm Hellhound rounds.

2. The reticule for the ACOG is quite out of focus and blurry, it's hard to see, and even harder to aim accurately with.

Those are relatively minor things though, and in all i'm loving all of it. This rifle may just be the single most handy "jack-of-all-trades" rifle in the INF arsenal. Hell, i even had a good laugh trying out the hippie rainbow paint scheme.

Ms Bunnie · Admin, and Member

The SOF Combat Assault Rifle

Thank you for your interest in the FN-SCAR. I hope that everyone is pleased with the hard work, that Christopher (Indigo) has gone through, to get this weapon out to the small amount of INF community that we have now.

Since we are currently beta testing... it would be normal to have a few bugs here and there. So, if anyone is having issues, then we would appreciate you posting them under this thread.

We also appreciate those who are willing to help us beta test the FN-SCAR. We will have our download link updated to the most recent beta, and the same goes for the temp beta test server.

See you in the game! Ciao.
~Valinda (69bunnielicious)~